Were good friends of sculptor, David Smith. That is falt space on a flat surface. View Helen Frankenthaler’s 2,360 artworks on artnet. But that, if Ken was there then,  I don't think I met him then. MS. ROSE: Well I know that newspaper headline that you showed me when you were born. DOROTHY SECKLER: And that wouldn't be possible today, isn't likely that it would be possible. MS. FRANKENTHALER: No. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Well, I think generally pictures that had the Cubist push and pull space were the ones he responded to most. MS. ROSE: I mean what would he praise, or what would he put down? But I mean I was already in the Bennington swing of myth, ritual, criticism. What did you say? Because during college I didn't see[Arshile] Gorkys at all. I think a number of reasons. And just did something else. But once it got down on the surface I would say in 99 times out of a 100, out of 101, nobody would come along and say how come you put shoes in a picture. The opposite is going on now. I wonder if my pictures are more “lyrical” (that loaded word!) So that now when I think about it I'm never completely clear as to whether I remember it because he refreshed my memory or if it is that clear. I mean, I think in one sense he thought, "Who the hell are you to come up with it?" [Laughter]. It was, you know, great then. I mean it doesn't fit this context. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Yeah. It was a serious job. And Clem walked around the show with me. She was a major contributor to the history of postwar American painting. I have been trying, and the process began without my knowing it, to stop relying on gesture, but it is a struggle. You know, I loved to draw and paint and make designs and write stories. It was in 1957, the end of 1957, it was painting [inaudible]. MS. FRANKENTHALER: You mean and then go on to another picture for another quality? It’s what comes through in association after your eye has experienced the surface as a great picture; it is incidental but can be enriching. She also describes her technique, painting on the floor, titles, and color versus drawing. She shook me upside down. I’m much more apt to be surprised that pink and green within these shapes are doing something. I often want to experiment with the different ways I know myself. But more Miró. [Laughter]. Hm, bunch of roses, hm. And we got this little railroad flat two flights up. Helen Frankenthaler (1928- 2011) was a painter from New York, N.Y. From the description of Oral history interview with Helen Frankenthaler, 1969. But in sequence, I didn't paint new long canvases until I had seen his and I'm sure that Pollock's ambience affected me tremendously. And there was no water; there was a swimming hole, and if you got a ride with the one or two people who had cars you made it there. Writers like Mary McCarthy and Lillian Hellman positively resented what they considered a false and diminutive characterization. MS. ROSE: Did you used to go to The Club? You made a picture in a way that was a -- . But that was really the hard core. I will sometimes start a picture feeling “What will happen if I work with three blues and another color, and maybe more or less of the other color than the combined blues?” And very often midway through the picture I have to change the basis of the experience. I think they asked me for drinks. He was an Australian and a passionate Francophile. Forgot it. MS. ROSE: How do remember it? He said he was a baseball fan which surprised me very much. In my last year between [Eric] Fromm and Kenneth [Burke] for the first time I was aware of what symbols really mean and how language and rhetoric can really be used and the devices of dialectic fascinated me. Helen Frankenthaler (December 12, 1928 – December 27, 2011) was an American abstract expressionist painter. Pittura/Panorama: Paintings by Helen Frankenthaler, 1952–1992 marks the first time that Frankenthaler’s paintings have been exhibited in Venice since her inclusion in the 1966 Biennale as part of the US Pavilion. You know, each great master picked some young painter. MS. ROSE: Gottlieb must have a fantastic eye. And I'm concerned with being myself, getting to know more and more what that is, what is possible, and what the real meaning of beauty and development is. Do you remember? But I do have some pictures of still lifes and such that, you know, show you who your teacher was very much. Most of the people were dingy. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Sort of Mexican blues and reds. Describe your relationship with Jackson. MS. ROSE: Well what did you get from it? I thought if there’s a paint around that is durable, dries so quickly, let’s try it. I did it on cardboard. If it doesn't work then it's decorative or dead or just applied colors on a surface. And the guest of honor was the man who now runs the American Museum in Bath [England]. You know that he picked Frank,  the first picture of Frank's that was shown in New York Gottlieb was responsible for having it shown. MS. ROSE: That early you were doing this? May 28, 2014 - From the Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia 1995 It’s the role that the image plays; in a sense it is totally irrelevant to the esthetics of a work of art, but in another sense it adds a profound dimension, as certain webs of Pollock’s became decipherable characters. And felt like Clem I will do it on my own for painting, not because Clem and I are living together and I'm being included with the bunch. After ’51–’54 I had a long involvement with lines and black. MS. ROSE: After you saw Pollock's paintings did you immediately start painting in a different way? Last summer I did a landscape out the window of Provincetown Bay, a scene I’ve painted many times before. What did you do with him? And he was on the jury with Malraux and a couple of others of the first Paris Biennale in 1959. MS. FRANKENTHALER: With Tamayo I did things like Starry Night[Vincent Van Gogh, 1889], reaching for the stars, sort of Picasso, Watermelon Eater [Tamayo, 1949], ultramarine blues and oranges and things. You know, it was just a beginning. MS. ROSE: What impressed you at that point? Titian, [Diego] Velasquez, on and off, but now more. MS. FRANKENTHALER: I'll take you sometime. MS. FRANKENTHALER: And being able to know when to stop, when to labor, when to be puzzled, when to be satisfied, when to recognize beautiful or strange or ugly or clumsy, and to be free with what you are making that comes out of you. I'll have look it up. How long have you used the acrylic paints? MS. FRANKENTHALER: No. What do you dive off from? Anyway I'd been there only. That you liked so much at that moment. And she knew that while I would graduate at sixteen and that I had no record that would let anybody in their right mind let me go from a failing sophomore to a senior at the age of fifteen she banked on it. It's very common, it's just a sort of strain thing that passes across and if you're tired and you look a certain way. MS. FRANKENTHALER: No, not very much. She was a major contributor to the history of postwar American painting. She studied under the Mexican painter Rufino Tamayo in high school, at the MS. ROSE: Let's talk about that. And then one that is clearly a nude [Nude, 1958], I mean anybody who knows pink and breast shape, the feeling of body being seen. I had no sustained observation powers because I was so wrapped up in being frustrated. I saw a lot of Grace, and Al Leslie and Harry Jackson. (Unknown). Didn't paint. But we were very aware of Rothko and Still. Painters; New York, N.Y. Frankenthaler and Motherwell were married, and subsequently divorced. And I would write it verbatim today. Let's go there and have a drink. And then, say, if it was a Friday, we'd do the same thing with the same pictures Saturday. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Cubism. MS. FRANKENTHALER: I don't remember. MS. FRANKENTHALER: I think I knew it that last year at Dalton. And it was good. I had been at Horace Mann [School, New York, New York] which is a very good school, and part of Teacher's College. He did fantastic things for the people in the Depression. Sentiment and nuance are being squeezed out so that if something is not altogether flatly painted then there might be a hint of edge, chiaroscuro, shadow and if one wants just that pure thing these associations get in the way. I could say academic but they weren't because they were--. MS. ROSE: Did you ever talk about painting with Pollock? MS. FRANKENTHALER: Well, I think it's a life measuring stick. The war had just started, my father had died, I was changing schools. And I became very friendly with Frieda so that I made new friends that were --. Mountain: This is the first post in a new blog series I am doing called "Inspired" Every other week I'll post about an artist that we've been inspired by. Courtesy Gagosian Gallery and Burt Glinn/Magnum Photos . For all I know, if I were twenty today, it would be as “exciting.”. Like make a painting that was more [inaudible] then--. Traditionally, works on paper were more personal or diaristic, or they … I love Bennington girls. I was developing, but I was also developing suddenly in the context of the New York avant-garde of 1951. Painters; New York, N.Y. Frankenthaler and Motherwell were married, and subsequently divorced. He was in bad shape and I thought his psyche, his ego, his total ambience needed somebody hip, in other words, a real perceptive to shake it up eye to eye directly. I said I might go, I don't know, I had other things to do, we weren't close any more. The one that the Modern just acquired was in it. It was more of an attitude. And that was in '46. Let's say I had a leaning toward that weakness. Do you know? I liked the big 1961 Miró Blue II in the Guggenheim show several years ago very much. I don't think it would serve that purpose anymore. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Yeah. But also very wary of "those Bennington girls" they do wild things, they bring Greenwich Village into the house, they write things you can't understand, they paint things you can't, yeah. And it was a takeoff from Cy. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Well, the luck was that I had him that year, and then in order to get into Bennington I had to wait until the winter term. Staff Picks: Heaven, Hearing Trumpets, and Hong Sang-soo By The Paris Review January 15, 2021. Helen Frankenthaler (1928- 2011) was a painter from New York, N.Y. There's a name for it, I don't know what it is. Did it make a difference? And was very depressed. He might have been there that summer but I only stayed at Black Mountain about --. And then I felt, now they speak another language. Bohemia was where I lived and had fun and the rest was where I belonged with my family. What I decided, it was too much rent and too much space. When you’re making what you have to you’re totally involved in the act. Dorothy Gees Seckler Collection of Sound Recordings Relating to Art and Artists, 1962-1976. No One Belonged Here By Bette Howland January 14, 2021. Glen Luck. And it's also very restful. It went hand in hand. MS. FRANKENTHALER: I mean I feel no connection with other women painters of the past or present any more than I --. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Yes. That this was the message in life and what we owed this master. So that if it involved her losing face in her social setting then she might deliver a hysterical monologue about how terrible that kind of an education was because somebody might think I was sleeping with somebody, or hated my family, or went with Communists or something like that. No One Belonged Here By Bette Howland January 14, 2021. And we divided it. Once when he came to New York from Long Island [New York] to have a drink with Clem and I stayed for a little while because I knew their relationship was a kind of code, and different, unusual. It's an attempt at that you know, this is flat and a side view but in depth and a full view. And I admired his painting. MS. ROSE: Did you see a lot of each other? And I had in that show that picture called Woman on a Horsewhich I had painted in the studio I'd shared with Sonya Rudikoff. I felt its importance, respected it, but wasn’t up to it. MS. FRANKENTHALER: When I started at Bennington I painted realistically. Now [inaudible] she's left there. One thing I have never liked is a drip, I mean --. Anyway, Clem has that picture which I'll show you sometime. MS. FRANKENTHALER: It would usually be art world gossip, and general banter, or what then for them might have been amusing, you know, Peggy Guggenheim, or Partisan Review matters, or the New York scene, Parsons [School of Design, Manhattan, New York]. And we had a long phone call in which it was very clear that we shared a certain humor and interest. MS. ROSE: Were you interested in Kandinsky? Helen Frankenthaler was born on December12, 1928 in New York City. Helen Frankenthaler: Paper is Painting, at Bernard Jacobson Gallery, London is one of three exhibitions of the American abstract painter there, since 2000. And there were those pictures like Number 1 [1950], Number 14 [1951]. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Well, I think the lines disappear. Maybe, but nothing sticks in my mind. In a sense it was a truly dialectical way of making a picture. I had studied with Harrison during 1948–1949, my non-residence term from Bennington. But it was beautiful that what followed from my real interest in Kandinsky was an opening up, an awareness. WorldCat record id: 220179604 Helen Frankenthaler (1928- 2011) was a painter from New York, N.Y. From the description of Oral history interview with Helen Frankenthaler, 1969. WorldCat record id: 220179604 Helen Frankenthaler (1928- 2011) was a painter from New York, N.Y. From the description of Oral history interview with Helen Frankenthaler, 1969. Of course I was staying with the Hofmanns. I think, I have to look this up. And just soaking up de Kooning and Pollock. But I think I was heading towards that need to make something that eventually had to be made by being put on the floor. He called to get your telephone number. Try, you know, to get a different quality? But the attempt and the result is often from what's around and is available that I can invent with. And that was that. And it developed from there. MS. ROSE: But did you ever have any idea of what was eating him? MS. ROSE: Critical revisions of [inaudible]. I also didn't want to paint figures in my pictures. MS. FRANKENTHALER: No. MS. ROSE: Did you consciously do that? I would put droplets of it on the surface and watch it spread in this Paul Jenkins endless thing, endless fascination. Pittura/Panorama: Paintings by Helen Frankenthaler, 1952–1992 marks the first time that Frankenthaler’s paintings have been exhibited in Venice since her inclusion in the 1966 Biennale as part of the US Pavilion. But when it came to an entourage they camped with Bill. Without the sizing and priming? MS. ROSE: Do you feel you got anything particularly from Hofmann? I had the studio with Sonya. And that Pollock instead opened up what one's own inventiveness could take off from. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Yeah. Johnny Myers at Tibor was the first to take the younger artists, in a railroad flat on 53rd Street, between Second and Third, before 10th Street or the Stable. We were the second generation, they were the first. Oil and turpentine can fade on unsized, unprimed cotton duck; not that it always hurts a picture, but I’d rather a picture didn’t fade. Jackson was not inarticulate. And I was overwhelmed and puzzled and knew that this was my message, that this was a, what do you call it? But it didn't make us separate. It's like leftover food in the icebox. Or if I have a pot of leftover green and a pot of leftover pink I will very often mix it just because I want to use it up. MS. ROSE: Well, what do you want from art? Helen Frankenthaler (December 12, 1928 – December 27, 2011) was an American abstract expressionist painter. I mean what did he bring to you? Joan Mitchell, Helen Frankenthaler, and Grace Hartigan at the opening of Frankenthaler's solo exhibition at the Tibor de Nagy Gallery, New York, February 12, 1957. And Bennington, because of the record, and like Dalton with great faith, accepted me, and I have a cuckoo high school record, for not September but, because I was sixteen and had this funny record, accepted me for the winter term after the nonresident term. I’d rather risk an ugly surprise than rely on things I know I can do. MS. ROSE: Well, at what point did you become conscious of being a color painter? In May 1953, the two painters, who lived in Washington, made a now-historic pilgrimage to Frankenthaler's studio. MS. FRANKENTHALER: No, in the fall of '52. I was then very involved through the beginning of December. MS. ROSE: Did you know Jackson before you saw the paintings? But generally you don't do that. MS. ROSE: The what gallery? MS. ROSE: Did you go to galleries with Clem? 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